"FP is a Free For All"


New member
Data is power. They probably aren't collecting enough data to know what their guests are doing at every point in time, and you're 100% right that one of the primary goals of this project is to collect data to turn into more $$. :)

I just hope some of the data they are collecting is around the customer experience. Disney doesn't seem like the type of company that would ignore that piece, but there are many out there who make a lot of decisions without thinking about how it affects their customers! Big data doesn't always trump common sense.


he's right
For starters, it's pretty clear that an *actual* 5th gate is unlikely. The main purpose of new gates is to extend vacation stays and/or capture more of a typical vacation to Central Florida. However, between the four that are there, plus the water parks, plus ... Disney already has enough to capture more or less the entire typical domestic vacation. US families rarely take long vacations, preferring more frequent shorter trips. Here is one example article talking about this trend, but there are hundreds just like this. Worse, the trend is moving in the wrong direction for WDW---they are getting shorter. There is some evidence that the upper end is going back to long vacations, but that's not really Disney's core market (those are the folks flying to far-off locations in Business Class). There are also international travelers, many of whom stay longer to amortize the pain of travel to the US, and that segment is growing for Disney. But, the majority of WDW's guests are planning ever-shorter stays, not longer ones.

If that's so, then a 5th gate only cannibalizes the other four. It doesn't really add to things. But, an entirely new park requires a ton of fixed-cost infrastructure. Instead, expanding the existing parks makes sense given the demographics. If families are taking shorter vacations, and you want to grow, you need more families, and you need to make room for them. There are two ways to do that: better use the capital assets you have, or go build more.

Better efficiency vs. more capacity is not an either/or proposition. Disney appears to be committed to expanding existing parks with new capacity, in addition to the plans they have for MM+ better leveraging their existing infrastructre. For example, New Fantasyland added real capacity to MK. The Pandoraverse will do the same at AK. (And, no, I am not one of those who thinks Pandora won't or shouldn't happen. They aren't moving FotLK out of Camp Minnie-Mickey for giggles.) If either or both of the rumors about Studios are true---Radiator Springs and/or Star Wars---that's going to be a good chunk of change as well. Add it all up, and those are significant investments. New Fantasyland is estimated at around $425M. The Pandoraverse is another $400M.

As for the complexity of orchestrating the movements of folks: this happens to be one of my areas of active research, though I apply it to transportation networks, not theme parks. But, at the scale we are talking about---tens of thousands of people over hundreds of acres---it is well within the capabilities of current methods. What's more, it's easy to start slow and evolve over time, because it is all back-end infrastructure, not guest-facing technology. In other words, they can start with exactly what they have now, and just tweak as they go. This is just a natural extension of the "Surprise Fastpasses" to Philharmagic, etc. and it's not hard at all to imagine how it will work. It's still something I would consider having one of my CS Ph.D. students do, so it's not "known", but it's pretty close.

And, as DK points out, this is not just about orchestrating physical movements of guests, though that is a part of it. MM+ is really a holistic platform that enables all kinds of cool stuff, from micro-targeted marketing to better product placement in the gift shops to .... It really could be very revolutionary, though most of it will be in ways we simply won't see unless we happen to work for the Mouse.

Edited to add: one more important feature of MM+ is that it is an extension of Destination Disney: the push to get guests to pre-arrange as much of their trip as possible, and to make it easy to stay on property (and, equivalently, hard to leave). The ME, DDP, and the MYW ticketing system all work together to help make that happen. MM+ is the next step in that philosophy.
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New member
I will need to find the article... but before FP+ was rolled out and it was just a rumor last year or the year before, leaks were saying that the goal of MM+ is to key into the minds of the new generation. Many people only take one trip to Disney World, and the goal of MM+ is to give those people such a great time that they decide to come a second time. Also, it was mentioned that one of the biggest costs of the parks is manning and operating them. Extra Magic Hours are a huge cost, and Disney would like to get rid of them if they possibly can... we have already seen the reduction of Evening Extra Magic Hours from 3 hours to 2 hours. The way the article was worded, it sounded like MM+ and some of its experiences were ideally going to eventually replace Extra Magic Hours. That would save Disney TONS of money and recoup the cost of MM+ very quickly. Iger did mention in a recent press release that FP+ would be available to about 80,000 visitors by the next fiscal year. Guess how many onsite visitors there usual are? About 80,000. While it will eventually roll out to everyone, I wonder if onsite guests will be given extra perks.


New member
I had read elsewhere that only old KTTW cards that had never had tickets attached worked in the FP- machines; that if a ticket had been on the card it would be read as expired and be rejected, has anyone tested that one way or another?
I have KTTW (room keys only) from '07, '09, and Premier (aka Coast-to-Coast) APs that we brought to test this week. I was able to successfully use all to pull FPs at MK Sat & Wed and Epcot Sun. I was unable to use any of them today for FPs at EE @ AK.

Not sure what that means, but there ya have it.



makes josh ride in the passenger seat
I had 6 old room keys and 2 old tyvek tickets. Unsuccesful at Safari today for all of them. I was going to toss them but based on MK's report, perhaps I will try again.


New member
Had crazy day today using KTTW cards (valid, are using now) and tickets (yes tix, separate from our room keys) for FPs. Made up for the fact that the whole world went to TSM at park opening - FP return time was out to 10:50 at 8:44.

Going to AK tomorrow and are hoping we can double up there too, but not sure based on the feedback above. Anyone else?


makes josh ride in the passenger seat
We used current room keys + current tix at AK for safari. We went late in the day ,4:00, after Safari EE FP were gone but rode twice as walk on around 6:00 LOVE the late afternoon AK plan!!

We also used our keys and tix at RnR, didn't try our old ones there. Because we had 3 reservations, I am currently holding 10 room keys and 2 tickets. That's plenty :)


New member
Oct trip coming up. There are 6 of us and I have KTTW cards from 2 previous trips plus all the ones from our 13 person extravaganza last Nov. not that I would but I could set up shop and make a small fortune off of Manhattan Moms until they change this. ;)


Staff member
I initially thought I had forgotten my old room keys today, but it ended up I had one from a one-night trip last year that never had tickets attached to it. It was just a room-only reservation. Put it through the machine and out popped a FASTPASS for The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. The machine does know when it dispensed the FASTPASS, so in that respect they work the same way as any valid media. So I would have to wait the 40 minutes to get another with that key or whatever the "next FASTPASS will be available" time is.


makes josh ride in the passenger seat
We have a bunch with 3 different reservations but we are finding, I think, that if they ever had tickets on them they dont work. So they have to be room keys that never had tickets attached to them


Real Name: Charcoal Grills
I had something like this happen at Disneyland Paris a few years ago. We bought separate tickets for each day, and on the last day I had all of them with me and they got mixed together. I discovered that ALL of them worked for getting FPs.

My family is at Disney right now and I'll be joining them Tuesday. I don't have any old room keys (with me), but I do have expired DL APs, active DLP APs, WDW APs, and for our second and third week there, we'll have DVC room keys. So I'm VERY anxious to see what works.


the jeweled acrobats only perform amazing stunts f
Room only KTTW cards worked today for additional Fps at DHS for TSM. I love the no rope drop show opening at DHS - so much easier to get to the FP machines and ride standby first thing.


Real Name: Charcoal Grills
I was at DHS today, and I tried the following cards in the TSMM FP machine:

Current APs - Got a set of FPs
Current Room Only KTTW - Got a second set of FPs
Expired DL APs - Nothing
Current DLP APs - Nothing

So it looks like room keys get you an extra set of FPs! Looking forward to next week when we switch resorts. Between our APs, our current room keys, and our new ones, that'll give us THREE sets of FPs.

Art Vandelay

that's a shame
I overheard a few CM's talking near the KS FP machines in AK. One, who looked like he was there to assist with any Magic Band problems, was telling the others that guests using Magic Bands were told to bring their KTTW cards as a back up in case the MB's weren't working, that they knew this would allow doubling up on FP's and that getting double FP's was ok.

We used our AP's and KTTW cards all week to get extra FP's.


New member
Just have to say that I have read all the pages of this thread and then went to MK on Saturday. Had our APs and expired room keys. Didn't pull 1 FP the whole time. :RpS_rolleyes: We only spent 4 hours in the evening there. A rainstorm came though and emptied the place out. Rode PotC, Tiki Room, and HM all with no wait, played the Pirate Adventure game and had dinner, shopped a bit and then left.

I so wanted to try it, but never needed single FP let alone double. I love late August. :RpS_thumbsup:


josh's date at akershus
We are leaving for WDW on Thursday and one of the tasks on my checklist is to find as many old KTTW cards as I can. I probably have well over 50. :RpS_thumbsup:


New member
:RpS_crying: Feeling quite sorry for myself now as the only old KTTW cards I have had tickets on them! :RpS_crying:
:RpS_lol: It would have been brilliant to be able to grab an extra set!