How should DVC Members rent out their points: Privately or broker-assisted?

bnoble

he's right
if you are a good liar you could get away with scamming multiple people as people are not allowed to compare notes in the forum...
If you're a talented scam artist, you are not going to spend your time on something as lowbrow as DVC rentals; there are much bigger fish to fry.

For the most part, DVC scams are obvious to anyone paying even the smallest amount of attention: rentals priced well below market rates, email only contact with poor spelling/grammar, wire transfer or (worse) cashier's check for payment, no contract or a laughably inadequate one, no established history on the board in question, etc. I can think of only one exception to this in the many years I've been a Disneyphile---and that was a DISer with a long history of positive rental transactions that ended up pulling the rug under a few guests when their personal finances took an unexpected dive during the recession.
 

pixarprincess

New member
I can think of only one exception to this in the many years I've been a Disneyphile---and that was a DISer with a long history of positive rental transactions that ended up pulling the rug under a few guests when their personal finances took an unexpected dive during the recession.
we had something similar happen to us on an unrelated transaction... so while I loathe the idea of paying a broker I am also the person who is super wary of these kinds of transactions. I guess my point was more if they wont let people post about it they should at least have an email/somewhere that people can submit issues privately... then they can spot patterns and ban people who are obviously not behaving in an above board way... I do realize that it can be time and cost prohibitive...
 

ptlohmysoul

Active member
I have been a rentee and a rentor on mouse owners.com. It was after renting that we decided to purchase dvc. The only reason we rented out points is because when we purchased, we unknowingly had points in holding that we didn't think we would use since we plan pretty far ahead (not just the 60 days needed for points in holding). We rented again to get the 11-month advantage at another resort (and because we have already become short on points), but this time we found what we wanted on disboards.com (and at a decent price) instead of mouse owners.com.
 

mgarbowski

Well-known member
There is risk on any such thing, including if you deal with an established business. bnoble's reference about to the person with a good history who suddenly scammed people when his finances went south reminded me of something that happened to my mom. She took a number of tours booked through a local touring agency that catered to seniors and had operated for years. The owner's finances also had a similar downturn and so they ended their operations by booking their last round of trips and just pocketing all the money. Of course I have absolutely no reason to think any of the DVC rental businesses would ever do such a thing. I guess my point is simply that that there is always risk when payment and performance are not simultaneous, no matter who or what you are dealing with.
 

DVC Mike

New member
There is risk on any such thing, including if you deal with an established business.... I guess my point is simply that that there is always risk when payment and performance are not simultaneous, no matter who or what you are dealing with.
I would agree that there is risk in any transaction. However the amount of risk will vary based on who you are dealing with.

I would think renting from someone you know very well, who has demonstrated in the past that they are a trustworthy person, involves less risk than renting from a total stranger on the Internet. Yes, there is risk with both, but one offers substantially less risk than the other.

There is less risk renting via a broker than renting directly with a complete stranger.
 

bnoble

he's right
There is less risk renting via a broker than renting directly with a complete stranger.
Yes, there is qualitatively less risk, in absolute terms. The question is: is it quantitatively enough of a difference to justify the price difference?

My personal belief is no. The vast majority of private transactions go off just fine, and you are more likely to "lose" the vacation due to e.g. unexpected illness or weather delays in travel than you are if the Member rips you off. If you can't afford the financial hit of losing the vacation---no matter the cause---then you should buy trip insurance, and you should buy it even if you are renting from a broker (just as e.g. David recommends in his contract.)
 

George

wishes he had a pink frolicing llama under his tag
we had something similar happen to us on an unrelated transaction... so while I loathe the idea of paying a broker I am also the person who is super wary of these kinds of transactions. I guess my point was more if they wont let people post about it they should at least have an email/somewhere that people can submit issues privately... then they can spot patterns and ban people who are obviously not behaving in an above board way... I do realize that it can be time and cost prohibitive...
I do think the risk associated with dealing with individual sellers is vastly overstated, assuming the renter does his or her basic share of due diligence. What David's is really selling is peace of mind, and that's enough for some types, like pixarprincess above.
 

DopeyRunr

the jeweled acrobats only perform amazing stunts f
I think the bigger risk is on the person with the points renting them out. Their asset (points) expire and if those points are tied up with a booking which ends up not getting paid for, and the points expire worthless, that person has very little meaningful recourse. Maybe they could win a court case or something like that? But that's a lot of work with no guarantee, even if winning a judgment, that one could easily collect.

If I'm renting points from YOU, and you stiff me, I can probably get all of my money back through paypal or the credit card company, and I'll have to scramble to find somewhere else to stay, but it will all work out OK in the end.

The more I think about this the less interested I become in the topic actually...
 

bnoble

he's right
I think the bigger risk is on the person with the points renting them out. Their asset (points) expire and if those points are tied up with a booking which ends up not getting paid for, and the points expire worthless, that person has very little meaningful recourse.
Don't most Members who rent require payment in advance?
 

George

wishes he had a pink frolicing llama under his tag
You know, thinking about it, I wonder if the real value is in the simplicity of dealing with David vs. a private transaction.
That's certainly part of it, but the website gives the impression of legitimacy, which could be the more important matter to people. There's really no way of knowing. And I don't mean to imply that David's is anything but a reputable company.

Don't most Members who rent require payment in advance?
I do. Every time. I make the reservation and give the renter the reservation number so they can look it up. Then they send me payment. If for some reason I don't get the payment, I can cancel the booking. Mind you, I haven't had to borrow or bank points for these, but if I had to, I'd have to look at each transaction to determine if I could live with not getting the money; usually the renter is so concerned about securing the booking that the money arrives very quickly.
 

DopeyRunr

the jeweled acrobats only perform amazing stunts f
Yes. But there's a risk that the person renting wants to cancel their trip, files a reversal request with PayPal or their credit card company, takes the money away from the DVC Member, who will have to fight, quite possibly unsuccessfully, to get his/her money back, and in any event could be left with un-bankable, soon-expiring points.
 

DVC Mike

New member
I would agree that there is risk in any transaction. However the amount of risk will vary based on who you are dealing with.

I would think renting from someone you know very well, who has demonstrated in the past that they are a trustworthy person, involves less risk than renting from a total stranger on the Internet. Yes, there is risk with both, but one offers substantially less risk than the other.

There is less risk renting via a broker than renting directly with a complete stranger.
Yes, there is qualitatively less risk, in absolute terms. The question is: is it quantitatively enough of a difference to justify the price difference?

My personal belief is no. The vast majority of private transactions go off just fine, and you are more likely to "lose" the vacation due to e.g. unexpected illness or weather delays in travel than you are if the Member rips you off. If you can't afford the financial hit of losing the vacation---no matter the cause---then you should buy trip insurance, and you should buy it even if you are renting from a broker (just as e.g. David recommends in his contract.)
I think the risk scale looks like this:

 

George

wishes he had a pink frolicing llama under his tag
Yes. But there's a risk that the person renting wants to cancel their trip, files a reversal request with PayPal or their credit card company, takes the money away from the DVC Member, who will have to fight, quite possibly unsuccessfully, to get his/her money back, and in any event could be left with un-bankable, soon-expiring points.
And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass a-hoppin'. :RpS_biggrin:
 

DopeyRunr

the jeweled acrobats only perform amazing stunts f
It's happened to me on eBay transactions, and it's happened to members renting out their points. To suggest that it's as rare as a frog with wings is a miscalculation of risk.
 

George

wishes he had a pink frolicing llama under his tag
It's happened to me on eBay transactions, and it's happened to members renting out their points. To suggest that it's as rare as a frog with wings is a miscalculation of risk.
Yeah, I get it. But the consumer can greatly stack the deck in his or her favor by doing even just a little bit of legwork.
 

bnoble

he's right
I think the risk scale looks like this:

Mike, that's a great picture, and I can live with your ordering. But I'm now going to have to be the Engineering Professor that I am in my day job. Your axis has no labels, and so there's no way to know if the difference between "someone you know" and "complete stranger" is meaningful. If the difference in the chances of default are 0.01%, then it doesn't really matter. If the difference in the chances of default are 10%, then it does.

My claim is that it's a lot closer to 0.01% than even 0.1%, let alone 10%.
 
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bnoble

he's right
Yes. But there's a risk that the person renting wants to cancel their trip, files a reversal request with PayPal or their credit card company, takes the money away from the DVC Member, who will have to fight, quite possibly unsuccessfully, to get his/her money back, and in any event could be left with un-bankable, soon-expiring points.
A credit card will back you if you have a signed contract that states the payment is non-refundable for any reason. But, to take credit cards directly you'll need Square or the equivalent. PayPal technically won't guarantee vacation rentals for the buyer, but you have to remind them of that, and they aren't very consistent. The simplest solution is to take personal checks. if you have to go to small claims court, you might get a judgement, but you aren't getting paid.

I suspect the chances of landlords being stiffed by a renter is not much different than the chances of a renter being stiffed by a landlord. As in: not worth worrying about.
 
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