Wyndham Bonnet Creek: Expect more difficulty in renting

bnoble

he's right
We've talked on and off about Wyndham Bonnet Creek. It's an unusual property--part of a development that is landlocked on three sides by WDW property and the fourth by I-4, so it "feels" like it is part of WDW. For a time, it was the hottest off-site option among the DISboards cognoscenti, because it was readily available as a surprisingly affordable rental. About ten years ago, Wyndham closed a loophole that raised the rental floor a little bit. (That is a long story. If you are interested it is here.)

Folks have long assumed Wyndham would continue to try to crack down on commercial renting, and it looks like the next shoe has dropped. Short version: the most in-demand resorts now have date-specific limits on how often a particular owner can send a guest without the owner also being there in another unit. Bonnet Creek is one of those resorts, and it has a pretty wide swath of dates. Those restricted include most Food & Wine weekends, peak Spring Break/Easter, and Memorial Day '22. There may well be more added in the future. Here are the current dates:


(As an aside: Bonnet is far from alone here. The prime Oahu resort is restricted most weekends/peak periods. The ski-in/ski-out resorts are restricted for most ski weekends/holiday weeks. Austin for SXSW. NOLA for Mardi Gras/Jazz Fest.)

"Regular" owners can still do some small-time renting (we each can have two reservations per year across all restricted dates/resorts where we are not traveling with our guests). These are probably the bulk of folks in e.g. the Vacation Strategy owner pool. A few large-scale renters who specialize in Bonnet will book a two-night stay in their own names overlapping with a block of reservations and just build in the cost to the rental. But, a lot of people in the middle are going to get squeezed.

As you can imagine, the cottage industry of Wyndham landlords is plenty PO'd, but most rank-and-file owners think this is a great idea.
 

bnoble

he's right
Probably not much. A number of large-point landlords got flushed out when cancel/rebook ended. Some left of their own volition, others because Wyndham made them an offer they couldn't refuse. There might be some more that liquidate, but it's a big system.
 

bnoble

he's right
New development: Wyndham has sent out some cease-and-desist letters to folks it has identified as commercial enterprises. At least one prominent TUGger who's been renting for years is planning to use Certified Exit to shed points she has only for rentals. I suspect there will be more people doing the same thing, and some of them will want the few bucks they might get via ebay etc. rather than just turning things over to Wyndham. This is normally the time of year that is a seller's market; it doesn't switch until very late fall or early winter, but that might happen earlier this year.
 

bnoble

he's right
Any thoughts how this will affect resale?
An even newer development: Wyndham will no longer allow owners with "blended" (developer + resale) accounts to apply developer perks to reservations that use resale points. This was a common strategy for some of the larger landlords: obtain a Platinum VIP account using a few corners to cut the cost, and then loading that account with a ton of inexpensive resale points. They could then use the VIP discount/upgrades on all the points in the account, not just the qualified ones.

Starting sometime August, that changes. As of then, reservations booked with (some) resale points won't be eligible for discounts/upgrades. This has always been the printed rule, but they didn't have mechanisms to enforce it.


With the change, we may see (a) a good number of resale points coming onto the market and (b) a reduced demand for large resale deeds, particularly those at the low-fee properties. So, if you are in the market for a Wyndham resale ownership, this winter might be a good time.
 

josh

Administrator
Staff member
Brian, you can just stay with me and not worry so much about these point conversions.
 

Strangeite

Well-known member
So, if you are in the market for a Wyndham resale ownership, this winter might be a good time.

I shouldn't be in the market but I would be lying if I said I haven't been looking.

I have done no research but one thing I don't get is the huge range in contracts that seem identical. At this link there is a contract with 168,000 biennial odd points for $10,000. Same site has another contract with 168,000 biennial odd points for $500. Both have the same description in their listings, very similar maintenance costs, etc.

It isn't just these two contracts either, there are dozens of seemingly identical contracts with vastly different prices.
 

George

wishes he had a pink frolicing llama under his tag
I shouldn't be in the market but I would be lying if I said I haven't been looking.

I have done no research but one thing I don't get is the huge range in contracts that seem identical. At this link there is a contract with 168,000 biennial odd points for $10,000. Same site has another contract with 168,000 biennial odd points for $500. Both have the same description in their listings, very similar maintenance costs, etc.

It isn't just these two contracts either, there are dozens of seemingly identical contracts with vastly different prices.
I think one includes VIP Tours. :RpS_laugh:
 

bnoble

he's right
one thing I don't get is the huge range in contracts that seem identical.
Some sellers understand what these are worth (pennies to a dime on the dollar) and some sellers are delusional.

SMTN is an "up front fee" outfit. They do not make money by selling timeshares---at least not primarily. They make money by listing timeshares for sale. They are not about to tell someone who thinks they will get back most of what they paid they are wrong and risk losing the listing. In fact, they may have even encouraged an unrealistic listing price to get the listing.

 

George

wishes he had a pink frolicing llama under his tag
Some sellers understand what these are worth (pennies to a dime on the dollar) and some sellers are delusional.

SMTN is an "up front fee" outfit. They do not make money by selling timeshares---at least not primarily. They make money by listing timeshares for sale. They are not about to tell someone who thinks they will get back most of what they paid they are wrong and risk losing the listing. In fact, they may have even encouraged an unrealistic listing price to get the listing.

That’s accurate, but it’s also a mission statement policy.

As a listing broker, I’m of the under-promise and over-deliver worldview. I’ve walked away from many an unrealistic seller’s potential business. In residential real estate, at least, there’s no listing that’s as valuable as future referrals from satisfied clients who already trust me. I know so many brokers who haven’t learned that they don’t get paid until everyone else is satisfied, i.e., at the closing table, and I’m not about to spend my time with something that’s not going to sell.
 

Strangeite

Well-known member
SMTN is an "up front fee" outfit. They do not make money by selling timeshares---at least not primarily. They make money by listing timeshares for sale. They are not about to tell someone who thinks they will get back most of what they paid they are wrong and risk losing the listing. In fact, they may have even encouraged an unrealistic listing price to get the listing.

Ahhh got it.

As a listing broker, I’m of the under-promise and over-deliver worldview. I’ve walked away from many an unrealistic seller’s potential business. In residential real estate, at least, there’s no listing that’s as valuable as future referrals from satisfied clients who already trust me. I know so many brokers who haven’t learned that they don’t get paid until everyone else is satisfied, i.e., at the closing table, and I’m not about to spend my time with something that’s not going to sell.

I have a handful of brokers that hire me so that I am the bad guy telling their client they are delusional about how much their property is worth. Although these days, it seems everyone including buyers, are delusional. In the past two weeks I have had five appraisals where the buyer offered over 20% of the listing price.
 

bnoble

he's right
I think part of the difference is that for many timeshares---and Wydnham is one of them---there just isn't enough market value to justify the services of a broker paid on sales commission, so there isn't really much incentive to (a) price accurately or (b) sell the dang thing. That in turn makes the market more opaque, leading to further variance in sales prices and a lower potential floor.

There are a few exceptions: Disney, Marriott, and maybe Hilton. But not many others.
 

George

wishes he had a pink frolicing llama under his tag
I have a handful of brokers that hire me so that I am the bad guy telling their client they are delusional about how much their property is worth. Although these days, it seems everyone including buyers, are delusional. In the past two weeks I have had five appraisals where the buyer offered over 20% of the listing price.
I‘m upfront with sellers, and tell them they have to sell their house three times. First to the showing agent, then to the buyer, then to the appraiser. And all three have to love it.
 

Strangeite

Well-known member
... then to the appraiser. And all three have to love it.

My client is usually the bank, so it doesn't really matter if I love the house or not, the numbers justify the loan or they don't. The biggest problem these days is that with the definition of Fair Market Value being a willing buyer and willing seller, with no undue pressure on either, the comps aren't always there to justify the price the buyer and seller reach.

For example, I am going this afternoon to look at a house in a neighborhood that currently has 17 pending sales. The listing price of all 17 of those houses is higher than highest price of a closed sale in the neighborhood.

It is why I am glad that over half of my work is commercial properties and farms. Less craziness and better money.
 
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